Patricia Karvelas: How should society balance the right to protest, the rights of artists to express themselves with obligations towards social cohesion and avoiding politicising institutions or sparking division between people? These are the questions which the conflict in Gaza has raised for organisations and individuals in Australia and around the world.
And they're really hard issues for so many institutions at the moment. The divisions have become particularly bitter in the art world, where, of course, and I think we love that about our arts, people do have strong convictions and are often really political and express that through their art. We're joined this morning by author and musician Deborah Conway and she joins us.
Deb, welcome to the program.
Deborah Conway: Thank you, Patricia. Lovely to be here.
Patricia Karvelas: Lovely to talk to you.
Of course, there was a kind of almost a lightning rod moment when on stage at a performance of The Seagull at the Sydney Theatre Company, there was an act of solidarity with Palestinians. How did you view that?
Deborah Conway: I mean it is incredibly complex and I also am conflicted and I suppose what I initially thought was, here are all these people who have, chosen to come and see a performance of Anton Chekhov's The Seagull and presumably it was a terrific performance and they've all leapt to their feet on a first night and given these, actors a rousing encore. And then they notice that they're, half of them are wearing, keffiyeh and I guess they feel like they have been in some way duped that they're, giving these performers, a round of applause, not for their performance, but for their political activism and they may have felt very betrayed by that and I know that they, I know that there was of course a huge kerfuffle about it because we've already had three members of the Sydney Festival Board, handing in their resignations and, there's been many letters written and there's been, many, people have decided that they would rather cut their ties with the Sydney Festival.
So I guess, I mean it's, it is a fraught question. Should you be able to, to protest, legitimately about something that you feel passionately about? Or do you think, and is that something that you can hijack another work of art over? Politics and art are not, enemies. Of course they're not.
There are plenty of wonderful works of art that have commented on the politics of the day. But, it's it's, I guess what happens then is that the people who are responding to that protest are able to protest, to able to respond in whatever they want without being accused of being censoring.
Patricia Karvelas: You appeared on stage recently, I think, wearing colours of the Israeli flag with the Star of David.
Deborah Conway: Oh, come on, Patricia. You don't think you know! You know perfectly well I did.
Patricia Karvelas: I think, I always just think, it's a word I use. I don't know because I didn't see you do it, right? But, so you can confirm because it's about you.
Why did you do it?
Deborah Conway: I can confirm that. That's correct. I did. And of course, that, that was my. That was my saying, I'm a Jew. I'm proud to be a Jew. I support the right of Israel to exist, which means that I am a Zionist. I, since October the 7th, uh, everyone I know in the Jewish community has felt very wretched because we have endured not just the unbelievable death cult atrocities of what happened that day, um, we've all heard it, some of us have seen it, some of us has tried very hard to avoid seeing it, but it's been pretty difficult.
And then, not only that, but on the 8th of October, we had to endure this extraordinary response from the community who, decided that Israel just needed, or the Jews needed a bit more punishment. And we had groups of people outside the opera house chanting, "Gas the Jews", before the IDF had lifted a finger in response.
And that was unbelievably terrifying. It was for many people and very, and made a lot of people very angry and really discombobulating because you think you, you feel like you're in a society which understands you and has welcomed you and has been your home and then suddenly find there's this underbelly of extraordinary antisemitism that, that, just refuses to acknowledge your right to a peaceful existence.
And it was peaceful before, by and large, before October 7th. But, there's been many claims since that the war started, a long time before that, and that's, the history is complex and, we could spend.
Patricia Karvelas: Yeah, we could, and there are, yeah, I just want to say that in relation to the chants of "Gas the Jews", that hasn't been verified and there are now multiple reports that say there were offensive chants directed towards Jews during the event, but lawyers representing the pro Palestinian organisers have said that the NSW police have not actually found evidence confirming the specific wording "Gas the Jews".
And I just, for accuracy, but we, there are reports that there was a group that did say something. So I think we, what you're talking though about, which I think is the crux of your point is that you think there was, antisemitism that has risen as a result of this as well.
Deborah Conway: I think, that, I think it uncovered antisemitism.
I think that, I think the antisemitism existed and before, before there was any action from the IDF to respond to what happened on October the 7th by saying that the Jews deserved it and that Israel is a illegitimate state and that we need to re-litigate the war of 1948 because Israel shouldn't be there at all.
I do believe that there's, that unavoidably that is an antisemitic response. I think, yeah.
Patricia Karvelas: You described yourself as a Zionist. Now the word Zionist has been really weaponized, I think, in recent times.
Deborah Conway: Oh, it has. It really has.
Patricia Karvelas: And perhaps how you describe yourself as a Zionist might be different to how people think of what that might be.
What is that, what does that word mean to you?
Deborah Conway: It means a democratic state, that where the Jews, rule themselves that, and they can defend themselves. That's what it means to me. A Jewish state where, it's the one Jewish state in the, world, amongst 193 nations, there is only one Jewish state, and that's where Jews feel that they can defend their right to be Jews, in whichever way that takes its form.
Israel is a democratic country. I don't know that Jews would support a country in their name that wasn't democratic, but it has always been democratic. It's largely been ruled by Labor governments. It's only fairly recently that, that Israel has, has elected conservative governments.
Patricia Karvelas: You mentioned you were conflicted.
Are you conflicted about the war in Gaza?
Deborah Conway: I don't believe that, I don't believe that Hamas can be allowed to continue to use Gaza as an operations base. I don't know that I'm conflicted about it, it's, war is awful, war is atrocious, people get killed, it's horrible, and unfortunately, I think that Hamas have embedded themselves in such a way that they, and to use their, the Palestinians as human shields for their, their operations.
it's fairly well documented of how much money has gone into that small piece of land and, and what. And, but, and yet still, there is enormous amount of poverty and, there are no bomb shelters for people, yet Hamas arranges, bombs to be going into Israel that are sent from schools, from hospitals, from mosques, from people's homes, from playgrounds.
And, and then the, I see, they seem to be happy that, that when, the IDF responds, that if a few of their own civilians are killed, that makes terrific press. It's so awful. I can barely bring myself to say these words, but the accounts of it, they're it's, there's so many of them that it's very difficult to dispute.
Patricia Karvelas: You mentioned Israel has a right to defend itself, and we hear that language a lot, but at the same time, there has been a disproportionate impact on innocent people.
Deborah Conway: And yet I hear that, response a lot. But I would say to you that
Patricia Karvelas: But kids, lots of kids, we know they're not Hamas, right?
Deborah Conway: It depends on what you call kids. But, young people, 16, 17 year old young boys toting rifles. I've seen plenty of photos of that stuff. Unfortunately they, Hamas recruits, um, boys that are not men yet. And so they are.
Patricia Karvelas: But there are a lot of really young people dying.
Deborah Conway: There are a lot of young people dying, but, I believe that the responsibility for that lies pretty squarely with Hamas, who have embedded themselves in the civilian population, who have not allowed the Gazans to move south when Israel asked them to. They were given two weeks and a safe corridor to go through.
Hamas, was telling them that they couldn't move. They were actually, they actually murdered some people who tried to move. Israelis, do, they do a kind of a knock on buildings before they bomb them to warn people to get out. I think that, the, there's so much attention on Israel. They, don't want to commit war crimes.
They really don't. It's very important for them to be as meticulous as possible to not commit war crimes.
Patricia Karvelas: Do we know that though, Deborah? Do we know that?
Deborah Conway: I listened to the IDF spokesman and I listened to, the reports from, Amnesty International announced, 10 years ago that al Shifa Hospital was being used as a, terror center for Hamas and that Palestinian, traitors were being taken there to be tortured.
This was Amnesty International and an organization that's not fond of Israel, let me tell you. So yes, there's, there are, I can't recite all of the independent information right here for you now, I'm just not that smart, but, but I have, read plenty of, accounts, of, on eyewitness reports that this is the case.
And, they have, and they've also gone in and they've shown us videos since, since discovering weapons caches then in schools and under hospital, under the hospital, et cetera. I would also say to you that, I don't know if you remember. In 2002, after the second Intifada Israel, the IDF went into Jenin and, they, there was a terrible pitched battle for, a long, for a while.
I think it was maybe a 10-day pitched battle in April, something like that. And, people were screaming "The Jenin Massacre… The Jenin Massacre". Do you recall that?
Patricia Karvelas: Yeah.
Deborah Conway: It's, you do. Okay. When, the smoke had cleared and the bodies were counted. And people were screaming, thousands are dying.
What is going on? The international community needs to step in and stop the IDF. And when the smoke had cleared and when the bodies were counted, there were 26 IDF soldiers dead and there were 56 Palestinian soldiers and civilians dead. I don't think that qualifies as a massacre.
it's,
Patricia Karvelas: Yeah. Look, right now, I can't,
Deborah Conway: And I suspect, that, and I know you can't because you are the ABC, I get that, but I do suspect,
Patricia Karvelas: No, I can't fact check what you say because
Deborah Conway: No,
Patricia Karvelas: Yeah, I'm not focused on that right now.
Deborah Conway: That's alright. But I, what I'm saying is that, that, that is.
That is an interesting example of what may be happening here and we get the figures from the Hamas Ministry of Health and that's the only figures that are out there and they're the ones that are going through the UN and then people they're laundered through the UN and everyone says "oh the UN says" but that but they're getting them from Hamas because no one else is able to do that to count the figures.
So when we talk about how many civilians are dying and how many— And I've no doubt there are a lot.
Patricia Karvelas: There are clearly a lot. I think that's something we can all agree on.
Deborah Conway: But I also don't, but I also don't believe that the figures are accurate. And I don't believe that they could possibly know at this point.
At this stage, however many weeks after the October the 7th massacre, they're only just, the Israelis are only just figuring out how many people died on October the 7th.
Patricia Karvelas: Deborah?
Deborah Conway: Yes.
Patricia Karvelas: I politely saying goodbye to you just because we are waiting on it. We could talk for a long time and I know that's your perspective and I know many other people feel.
Deborah Conway: Did we get to the crux of the matter that you wanted to talk about?
Patricia Karvelas: I think we talked about the arts at the start, so I appreciate you joining us this morning. Thank you so much for joining us.
Deborah Conway: That's a pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.
Patricia Karvelas: Deborah Conway is a singer and songwriter and the author of the memoir, The Book of Life.
And she, there has been this huge split in the arts community about this. She obviously, she called herself a Zionist. She's very much, feels like this war is justified.